Curse

imnotyourmother · Aug 04, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

its its overdone..is done..

HawkofStorms · Aug 04, 2009, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

No single profession should be able to do in 10 minutes what takes 1 or 2 hours for the rest.

Exactly. The fact is, this farm is so efficient, it destroys the reason to even bother running it normally. People like myself who just don't have fun doing SCs (because I don't like the playing style) are screwed over, because everytime my guild, alliance, or a PUG wants to do those areas, they want to SC. I can't play with my play style because people are doing SCs.

Games should be about allowing players to have fun, not get "phat epic loot" as fast as humanly possible. And if you think you "have fun" doing speed clears... you only say that because you enjoy the rewards of it and because you probably never actually beat UW/FoW the old fashioned way (because you can't w/o OP skill combos). If you have fun doing SCs, then you should be able to have fun doing UW/FoW legitimately too. If you don't, then clearly it was just the loot that you enjoyed, and not the actually gaming experience.

Bug John · Aug 04, 2009, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Exactly. The fact is, this farm is so efficient, it destroys the reason to even bother running it normally. People like myself who just don't have fun doing SCs (because I don't like the playing style) are screwed over, because everytime my guild, alliance, or a PUG wants to do those areas, they want to SC. I can't play with my play style because people are doing SCs.

Games should be about allowing players to have fun, not get "phat epic loot" as fast as humanly possible. And if you think you "have fun" doing speed clears... you only say that because you enjoy the rewards of it and because you probably never actually beat UW/FoW the old fashioned way (because you can't w/o OP skill combos). If you have fun doing SCs, then you should be able to have fun doing UW/FoW legitimately too. If you don't, then clearly it was just the loot that you enjoyed, and not the actually gaming experience.

Are you even talking about GW ?

People do not bother running UW normally because there's absolutely no point doing it. Once you did all the quests once, you're done.

BTW, what is a "normal build" ? Who are you to define normality and legitimacy in GW ?

There's no "epic loot" in GW, just a retarded 0.0001% chance to get something worth 100 ectos in a chest.

You say you want to be able to enjoy the game freely, but you want to prevent others form using certain skills, something just doesn't sound quite right...

Of course, the only thing they enjoy in SC builds is the end chest, and so what ? It's still better than nothing.

Can you really be that egoistic ?

Ugh · Aug 04, 2009, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

All proffessions are equal, it's how you USE them.

No, professions are not equal. Let's look at the monk and the paragon, for example. Two monks are required in pretty much every balanced group (assuming it's a group of 8) with the minor exception of Ritualists or Eles acting as healers. Paragons have one widely accepted PvE build and are otherwise ignored. Two monks can clear countless high-end areas. Paragons have almost no farming builds.

Quote:

And what would assassins be without perma? you tell me the answer to that one

This I agree with. Assassins are only really desired when they are acting as SF tanks. But that doesn't mean they should continue abusing it, that means there is a problem with the class and they need buffs in other areas.

Quote:

wow, shows how much of a idiot you are, messing up other peoples posts

Quote:

So again, you are just objecting to this meta because YOU don't like it, and everyone should have to play your way.

I am objecting to this meta because it revolves around a skill that is clearly broken, it limits play to one build, it can clear an elite area in HM in a matter of minutes, and it is very simple to do. Also, it's just old. Age isn't really a valid argument (which is why I didn't include it in the list), but I really would just like something fresh (but preferably not gamebreaking >.>).

Quote:

Therefore, everyone who enjoys the current meta should have to adapt to the mighty Ugh's playstyle, because he's more important than they are

Basically, "the mighty Ugh's playstyle" (lol) can consist of anything that isn't clearly abusive to a game element that wasn't meant to be abused (SF, Keg farming, etc). Seems to leave a lot of options open.

Quote:

Exactly. The fact is, this farm is so efficient, it destroys the reason to even bother running it normally. People like myself who just don't have fun doing SCs (because I don't like the playing style) are screwed over, because everytime my guild, alliance, or a PUG wants to do those areas, they want to SC. I can't play with my play style because people are doing SCs.

Games should be about allowing players to have fun, not get "phat epic loot" as fast as humanly possible. And if you think you "have fun" doing speed clears... you only say that because you enjoy the rewards of it and because you probably never actually beat UW/FoW the old fashioned way (because you can't w/o OP skill combos). If you have fun doing SCs, then you should be able to have fun doing UW/FoW legitimately too. If you don't, then clearly it was just the loot that you enjoyed, and not the actually gaming experience.

<3 that post --^

Quote:

Yes, I was talking about the 'new' meta you are going for, that will probably exclude 7/10 profession (just an educated guess based on all previous speed clear metas).

Oh, I see. Edited previous post. However, not all SCs use only 3 professions. For example, Manlyway uses warriors, eles, a sin, a necro, a monk, and a rit.

Quote:

I haven't gotten a q9 Voltaic Spear or an eternal blade or any other high value item dropped for me in all that time. Does that mean I'm pissed at the people who have? No. Did those people 'earn' their obsidian armor more because they got a high value item dropped? No.

But not all those lucky people abused a broken skill to get it.

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

I am objecting to this meta because it revolves around a skill that is clearly broken, it limits play to one build, it can clear an elite area in HM in a matter of minutes, and it is very simple to do.

Your ignorance is showing again. Having 2 skills in common doesn't make it all the "same build" any more than every ranger bar in a PUG is the same build because they'll kick you if you don't have D-shot. I think Pools and Plains use the same build, but then, pits has 2 or 3 different options...

That the skill is broken is a matter of opinion, not fact (SF can be used for UWSC, we get it, but there are puh-lenty of things it can't farm), and you're again overestimating the efficiency and ease of UWSC. If it was as fast and foolproof as you seem to think, there wouldn't be any concept of "Failure pays cons," for instance. One screwup ruins the entire team and they start from scratch (gogogo dead reaper).

Quote:

Also, it's just old. Age isn't really a valid argument (which is why I didn't include it in the list), but I really would just like something fresh (but preferably not gamebreaking >.>).

You're not going to get it in a PUG. If that's what you want, get a better guild, new friends, or a better game, but stop pugging. Pugs do not appreciate creativity and initiative.

Quote:

Basically, "the mighty Ugh's playstyle" (lol) can consist of anything that isn't clearly abusive to a game element that wasn't meant to be abused (SF, Keg farming, etc). Seems to leave a lot of options open.

Since Anet has specifically said that they don't want to nerf perma-SF as a solution, that would mean that it's not "abusive to[sic] a game element that wasn't meant to be abused."

If they want to nerf UWSC, the best solution came up earlier in the thread... just make the doors open one at a time, or only allow one quest/reaper up at a time. This way they don't mess with skills that, regardless of what YOU think, THEY do not find "abusive". Change the AREA, not the skill

Kashrlyyk · Aug 04, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avatar The Element

SF is basically godmode.....pls nerf it

Protective spirit has caused godmode 55hp and 600hp monks. Going to call for a much needed nerf for protective spirit too??

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Protective spirit has caused godmode 55hp and 600hp monks. Going to call for a much needed nerf for protective spirit too??

Not to mention 55 and 600 Necros.

vandevere · Aug 04, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Your ignorance is showing again. Having 2 skills in common doesn't make it all the "same build" any more than every ranger bar in a PUG is the same build because they'll kick you if you don't have D-shot. I think Pools and Plains use the same build, but then, pits has 2 or 3 different options...

That the skill is broken is a matter of opinion, not fact (SF can be used for UWSC, we get it, but there are puh-lenty of things it can't farm), and you're again overestimating the efficiency and ease of UWSC. If it was as fast and foolproof as you seem to think, there wouldn't be any concept of "Failure pays cons," for instance. One screwup ruins the entire team and they start from scratch (gogogo dead reaper).

You're not going to get it in a PUG. If that's what you want, get a better guild, new friends, or a better game, but stop pugging. Pugs do not appreciate creativity and initiative.

Since Anet has specifically said that they don't want to nerf perma-SF as a solution, that would mean that it's not "abusive to[sic] a game element that wasn't meant to be abused."

If they want to nerf UWSC, the best solution came up earlier in the thread... just make the doors open one at a time, or only allow one quest/reaper up at a time. This way they don't mess with skills that, regardless of what YOU think, THEY do not find "abusive". Change the AREA, not the skill

Like I said earlier, randomizing the monsters, and the skills they use, will also make a speed clear much less effective.

I mean, everyone who has gone to the UW knows exactly what is where. So everyone knows what skills to bring to which encounter. But, what if you didn't know which monster you would be facing? Or the skills they'll be using?

You'd have to slow down some, just to see what you're going to face at the next encounter.

I think that's all you would need, really, to...um...nerf the speed clears...

You see, I'm a little Nerf-weary right now. In the eyes of many, skill-nerfing has gone from being one of many possible solutions, to being the ONLY solution. And that's a lot like going after a mosquito with a bazooka.

Most of the problems I've been reading about would be better addressed by randomizing the monsters than by skill-killing.

And, let's make no mistake about this; there are posters here who have gone on record as saying they want SF, or whatever the hated skill is at the moment, totally erased off the skill-bar. I think the current term used to describe skill-killing is Smiter's Booned...

As so many have said, once SF is erased, these people will start railing after yet another skill, demanding yet another Smiter's Boon job. And I really don't see that ending until the game itself does.

Let's stop using blunt force to fix things, please. A little creativity and imagination, might actually get the job done without having to nerf anything...

Deakon · Aug 04, 2009, 06:07 PM // 18:07

If all classes are balanced then what's the point in having more than one class? This thread reminds me of the "I can't get into HA because I'm not ranked" threads.

Ugh · Aug 04, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Your ignorance is showing again. Having 2 skills in common doesn't make it all the "same build" any more than every ranger bar in a PUG is the same build because they'll kick you if you don't have D-shot. I think Pools and Plains use the same build, but then, pits has 2 or 3 different options...

By "same build" I meant the team build used for UWSC, not the individual builds. And, if you want to hear more of me QQing, you can head on down to the ranger forum where I babble about how ranger skills lack variety and that they need more viable choices.

Quote:

That the skill is broken is a matter of opinion, not fact (SF can be used for UWSC, we get it, but there are puh-lenty of things it can't farm

From what I've seen, a permasin can farm either the most areas in the game or the second most (600 monks might be able to farm more, I dunno).

Quote:

and you're again overestimating the efficiency and ease of UWSC. If it was as fast and foolproof as you seem to think, there wouldn't be any concept of "Failure pays cons," for instance.

You seem to be the only one on Guru who thinks this.

Quote:

Since Anet has specifically said that they don't want to nerf perma-SF as a solution

Hopefully a change to functionality isn't a nerf in the eyes of Anet.

Quote:

If they want to nerf UWSC, the best solution came up earlier in the thread... just make the doors open one at a time, or only allow one quest/reaper up at a time. This way they don't mess with skills that, regardless of what YOU think, THEY do not find "abusive". Change the AREA, not the skill

This would be okay, I guess. I would still prefer they changed the skill but my personal opinion doesn't matter to Anet/anyone else.

Quote:

Protective spirit has caused godmode 55hp and 600hp monks. Going to call for a much needed nerf for protective spirit too??

If you insist...

Protective Spirit
10e 1/4c 5r
Enchantment Spell. For 5...19...23 seconds, target other ally cannot lose more than 10% max Health due to damage from a single attack or Spell.

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

Like I said earlier, randomizing the monsters, and the skills they use, will also make a speed clear much less effective.

While I agree with you on just about every point (I'm sick and tired of the goddamn nerfbat), one of the qualifications of a "good" nerf to UWSC would be that it doesn't screw up the "normal" groups (that the whining smiters-boon-craving crowd insist never happen), right?

In light of that, I think the randomized spawning, if even technically possible in the engine, could be problematic. "Bad spawns" could go from something that screws up mountains to being a bad combination that all but assures a party wipe in the chamber. Take Smites+Coldfires, for instance. Part of the strategy for the wastes sin is the use the wide-open area of wastes to avoid these little battles and let them take care of each other if they want to live. Put them right at the start and wham... half the party is wiped before the other half has zoned in.

I'm not saying it's a bad solution, just one that would have to be implemented carefully, and "carefully" doesn't seem to be in the Anet Nerf-teams' vocabulary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

From what I've seen, a permasin can farm either the most areas in the game or the second most (600 monks might be able to farm more, I dunno).

The most != All, and the 600 does have the advantage. It doesn't even take enchant stripping to stop a perma. Just maybe a monk (and almost certainly 2) with a sufficiently spammable heal and most perma builds are shut down by raw recharge and the energy requirements. And the stuff it can farm are slower than most 600 builds (except maybe the Shield of Judgement ones... talk about overrated) because of the damage nerf and recharge on popular spells and/or the attack-skill shutdown of DP.

Quote:

You seem to be the only one on Guru who thinks this.

Who thinks what? That UWSC is not as easy as the SF-haters claim? No, I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Unless you mean the ones who are so morally opposed to it that, like yourself, that refuse to lower themselves to even try it, but instead speak out of ignorance that they read elsewhere on the forums, creating an echo-chamber of UWSC hate?

Quote:

Hopefully a change to functionality isn't a nerf in the eyes of Anet.

By definition, anything you would consider a "fix" would be a nerf, since you consider the skill too powerful to the point of broken, and a "fix" you approve of would make it less powerful.

Yichi · Aug 04, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

Protective spirit has caused godmode 55hp and 600hp monks. Going to call for a much needed nerf for protective spirit too??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Not to mention 55 and 600 Necros.

You people amuse me. There has been countless posts that prove that Prot Spirit works as it was intended too and always has. In the case of 55 monks and necros, it is a flaw in game mechanics that allows it to work more efficiently. In the case of the 600 smite, it still works as it is intended too, but when combined with SB, it makes the damage you take negligible. Nerfing Prot Spirit does not tackle the root of the problem, only compounds it by making a good skill that when used in a setting without breaking the game mechanics to benefit the most from it into a horrid skill.

The same can be argued with SF in the UWSC. It is the fault of game mechanics (by the addition of cons, etc.) as the skill is technically working as it is intended too. Should they completely kill the skill, no. Should they re-do their game mechanics to disallow the abuse of this, ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!

HawkofStorms · Aug 04, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

The point is, SF is so much better then 55ing, 600ing, etc. It isn't that it is good. It's insanely good. Being able to farm isn't a problem in itself. Farming builds will always exist thanks to people's creativity, and should since they let people make money. Being able to farm far and away better then any other build is a problem.

Yichi · Aug 04, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Protective Spirit
10e 1/4c 5r
Enchantment Spell. For 5...19...23 seconds, target other ally cannot lose more than 10% max Health due to damage from a single attack or Spell.

You have now done nothing more to the skill other than make to put it on the 2nd character instead of the primary. Same functionality, same results, can now add an additional skill on the primary bar to make run go smoother.

For PVP's sake, this change had better not be global, otherwise you completely screw monk bars...

Targren · Aug 04, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The point is, SF is so much better then 55ing, 600ing, etc. It isn't that it is good. It's insanely good. Being able to farm isn't a problem in itself. Farming builds will always exist thanks to people's creativity, and should since they let people make money. Being able to farm far and away better then any other build is a problem.

Except it's not. Which one is better is really farm-dependent. Sure, SF is better for farming UW, since that area has already been specifically nerfed AGAINST the 600/55 builds, but, for some of the more situational farms (most that I've done for Nicholas over the past few months, for instance), 600/55 kicks the snot out of it. The only really high-return, shining jewel of SF farms is UW.

Grj · Aug 04, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The point is, SF is so much better then 55ing, 600ing, etc. It isn't that it is good. It's insanely good. Being able to farm isn't a problem in itself. Farming builds will always exist thanks to people's creativity, and should since they let people make money. Being able to farm far and away better then any other build is a problem.

Back then 55/600/smite solo/duo was better then all the other farming options out there but for some reason seems to evade the list of things people cry to get changed.

I guess everyone was too busy farming there asses off to care huh

Yichi · Aug 04, 2009, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

Back then 55/600/smite solo/duo was better then all the other farming options out there but for some reason seems to evade the list of things people cry to get changed.

I guess everyone was too busy farming there asses off to care huh

Not quite, it was brought up on several occasions that it should be nerfed, however it isn't a skill problem that allows each of the builds to function as well as they do. It is a game mechanic issue, not a skill imbalance. See my post above.

vandevere · Aug 04, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

While I agree with you on just about every point (I'm sick and tired of the goddamn nerfbat), one of the qualifications of a "good" nerf to UWSC would be that it doesn't screw up the "normal" groups (that the whining smiters-boon-craving crowd insist never happen), right?

In light of that, I think the randomized spawning, if even technically possible in the engine, could be problematic. "Bad spawns" could go from something that screws up mountains to being a bad combination that all but assures a party wipe in the chamber. Take Smites+Coldfires, for instance. Part of the strategy for the wastes sin is the use the wide-open area of wastes to avoid these little battles and let them take care of each other if they want to live. Put them right at the start and wham... half the party is wiped before the other half has zoned in.

I'm not saying it's a bad solution, just one that would have to be implemented carefully, and "carefully" doesn't seem to be in the Anet Nerf-teams' vocabulary.

I agree with you utterly on this. My reservations are with the nerfing culture that has sprung up.

Every time a problem has sprung up, the first thing we hear is NERF IT!!!; as if skill-killing is the be all and end all.

It should only be used in the last resort, when all other alternatives have been esxhausted.

Now, I've been in the UW a few times. Never did a Speed Clear, never will. I like to slow down and take my time. Trying to get max efficiency was never my thing. But, if people want UW slowed down THAT badly, there have to be other ways to do it than to Smiters Boon a skill.

I'd like ANET to look at all those other options before they go and kill a skill...

Yichi · Aug 04, 2009, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by vandevere

I'd like ANET to look at all those other options before they go and kill a skill...

Sadly the true fix to over 3/4 the problem lies within game mechanics, not the actual skills themselves, but it takes less time to adjust numbers on a skill, than to re-write programming in most cases.

Improvavel · Aug 04, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Sincerely, instead of adding "new content" to the game, one of those big updates could be about redesigning UW.

UW is one of the most retard places in the entire GW - "hey its a mob of warriors", "look its a mob of rangers", "there is the mob of mesmers and there is the mob of monks and mob of eles and mob or necros"...

Dull and boooooooooooooooring and they killed the drops so much going there in any team format other than farming/UWSC is so freaking unrewarding that combined with the crappy uni-dimensional mobs makes UW #1 place to avoid in my book.